Some very interesting observations on football in China, with lessons for Indian football too. Prof Chadwick's assertion that a country cannot become a football powerhouse simply by pouring in money but by creating a culture of football in the country and a vibrant domestic league in the country chimes with the views of many IFN members who have expressed similar opinions at different points of time.
I have posted here only excerpts from the interview and highlighted those points which seemed particularly pertinent to me but please read the full interview to get a fascinating insight about the intertwining of sports, culture, education in a country.
‘Football needs to be far less a state instrument in China, more a social democratic institution’
China’s team sports in men are floundering despite years of effort and money put into basketball, football and volleyball, the three that the country covets global success in.
It comes in the way of China being recognised as a sporting powerhouse, despite its deluge of medals in individual disciplines at Olympics.
We talk to a close China watcher and expert on the subject, Simon Chadwick, who is Director of Eurasian Sport at Em Lyon Business School. Chadwick has observed the trends of change sweeping team sports in China, mostly football, and explains the curious dichotomy through an anthropological lens.
Are there intrinsic problems at a basic individual, sociological level in putting together successful men’s teams?
Additional dimension I would add is Chinese soft skill development is or has been deficient. If you look at Chinese educational system in hard skills development, it imparts, it is exceptional. And same could be said about Indian educational system. Great scientists, great mathematicians, great historians. People who’ve engaged in rote learning. Can recite texts and can understand history of the world, and how chemical compounds are comprised. But if you look for example at the British educational system, much greater soft skills – decision making, independence, creativity, innovation, teamwork, problem solving. These are deficient not just from Chinese educational system but from Chinese football. I’ve spoken to football coaches who coached in China before. And when they threw a young kid the ball and the kid has just looked and said ‘What are we supposed to do with this?’ Now for someone like me, a kid in England, you get the ball they don’t need to be told what to do. But in China, such is the educational system, such is the centralization of power control in China that Chinese kids often don’t know how to kick a ball unless they’re told how to do it.
Does quality of domestic leagues indicate good health of team games?
England, you have the domestic pyramid in the League. Germany you have a series of regional leagues. US you have college sports as a feeder. And China have been looking towards these different models. But what I’m not sensing right now is China have decided upon the best way to do this because we know that they are promoting University sports. But there doesn’t seem to be a particular connection between uni sports and professional athletes-structure. We know that China is trying to get university teams to participate in regional leagues in Germany. But that backfired for a whole number of reasons. China is a huge country and a regional league would make sense in many ways. But we are not seeing that progress. Yet. There doesn’t seem to be a particular view on regional leagues. The Chinese want to replicate the British pyramid but they really need to get into grassroots development, embedding sport within a culture. Also to make pathways for those who don’t make it in professional sport. Lots of decisions and examples to draw. But China needs to be more decisive and clear about which way to go.
Is pouring in money the solution to improve team sports?
Money alone is not enough. Culture trumps everything. Just because you pay someone to do something it doesn’t mean a culture gets established. Culture comes from years of repetition. You know this from cricket in India. It’s years of repetition. People are born and brought up, conditioned to it, they play, they watch it, they engage with it in different ways, so that it becomes normal and natural and it’s not seen as exceptional. I think at the moment there is something contrived about what China is trying to do. Because for most Chinese people, I emphasise this very strongly, for most Chinese people, football is not part of their lives. Their culture of sport. Its not naturally something that they look for entertainment or physical activity or exercise. So it’ll take effort.
What does it take to make a good national team?
Patience, openness, it’s got to be something that happens over at least a decade. You got to open your heart, your mind to different ways of doing things, different ways of playing, organising, training, different influences. It’s about heroes, icons, role models, its about success and about giving people reasons to cheer a team. At the moment I don’t think the Chinese have reasons to cheer a national team which underperforms.
Is Japan then a better model for team sports?
Combination of corporations and prefectures and clubs working together collectively is what’s working for Japan. As equal, trilateral partners. For me each one shows respect for the other, so it’s collaborative. In China one of the big issues is the state is omnipresent. It’s there in the background, waiting to intervene. And we know this prescribed way of living can be incredibly constraining when it comes to successfully trying to organise, trying to train people to make their own decisions. Talking specifically about football players, making decisions on the field of play.
It’s interesting to compare Chinese society with Saudi Arabia’a top football clubs. Now what Saudi Arabia is trying to do is to privatise those clubs because the Saudi government believes by privatising them it forces them to become more business like and strategic in how they operate. They’re not constantly looking for state handouts, for state to tell them what to do. They’ve got to make revenues, make good commercial decisions. They’ve got to manage labour, their players, the passion and there are lessons there that excessive state intervention – and keep in mind I’m not arguing here for excessive free market economy for governing Chinese football. But mixed economy is the best way to put it. Mixed economy of Chinese football needs to be strengthened. So football needs to be far less a state instrument. And far more a social democratic institution.
Money alone is not enough. Culture trumps everything. Just because
you pay someone to do something it doesn’t mean a culture gets
established. Culture comes from years of repetition. You know this from
cricket in India. It’s years of repetition. People are born and brought
up, conditioned to it, they play, they watch it, they engage with it in
different ways, so that it becomes normal and natural and it’s not seen
as exceptional.
These points sums it all. If we look at history of European clubs, they took decades to get into what they are today. Apart from 3 kolkata clubs we don't have any legacy. ISL is just 8 years old. We want instant gratification because the technology has advanced.
Biratnagar City FC, Kathmandu Rayzrs FC, Lalitpur City FC, FC Chitwan, Pokhara Thunders, Butwal Lumbini FC and Dhangadhi FC
So a samll country as Nepal has 7 teams compared to us. Its is a big shame for us.
The seven-team tournament to be organised
under the technical support of the All Nepal Football Association (ANFA)
would be played in the round robin format at Dasharath Stadium
If it is a temporary measure, then its ok. From next season they should be playing in their regions.
They are growing organically each year and now have a 20 team league with 21 foreigners and most of their top talents like Mahrez, Bennacer and many more are playing in top 5 divisions. This league is a supply chain for top clubs
New interim Tottenham boss Ryan Mason was fighting for his life four years ago after fracturing his skull playing for Hull against Chelsea - now he's the Premier League's youngest ever boss at just 29
He is about to become the Premier League's youngest manager, five years younger than captain Hugo Lloris — who is one of seven players in the squad who were team-mates of Mason on his last Spurs appearance five years ago.
Inter Milan win Serie A title and end Juventus' nine-year reign as Italian champions
Inter Milan clinch Serie A title with four matches to spare as Atalanta's 1-1 draw at Sassuolo on Sunday gave them unassailable 13-point cushion; Antonio Conte puts an end to club's 10-year trophy drought and Juventus' nine-year Scudetto winning cycle, which he started
Liverpool struggled this season on their title defense . There will be a lot of cutting and chopping this summer I think . And Arsenal ,11th as we speak . Sad days for a gooner.
Comments
I have posted here only excerpts from the interview and highlighted those points which seemed particularly pertinent to me but please read the full interview to get a fascinating insight about the intertwining of sports, culture, education in a country.
‘Football needs to be far less a state instrument in China, more a social democratic institution’
China’s team sports in men are floundering despite years of effort and money put into basketball, football and volleyball, the three that the country covets global success in.
It comes in the way of China being recognised as a sporting powerhouse, despite its deluge of medals in individual disciplines at Olympics.
We talk to a close China watcher and expert on the subject, Simon Chadwick, who is Director of Eurasian Sport at Em Lyon Business School. Chadwick has observed the trends of change sweeping team sports in China, mostly football, and explains the curious dichotomy through an anthropological lens.
Are there intrinsic problems at a basic individual, sociological level in putting together successful men’s teams?
Additional dimension I would add is Chinese soft skill development is or has been deficient. If you look at Chinese educational system in hard skills development, it imparts, it is exceptional. And same could be said about Indian educational system. Great scientists, great mathematicians, great historians. People who’ve engaged in rote learning. Can recite texts and can understand history of the world, and how chemical compounds are comprised. But if you look for example at the British educational system, much greater soft skills – decision making, independence, creativity, innovation, teamwork, problem solving. These are deficient not just from Chinese educational system but from Chinese football. I’ve spoken to football coaches who coached in China before. And when they threw a young kid the ball and the kid has just looked and said ‘What are we supposed to do with this?’ Now for someone like me, a kid in England, you get the ball they don’t need to be told what to do. But in China, such is the educational system, such is the centralization of power control in China that Chinese kids often don’t know how to kick a ball unless they’re told how to do it.
Does quality of domestic leagues indicate good health of team games?
England, you have the domestic pyramid in the League. Germany you have a series of regional leagues. US you have college sports as a feeder. And China have been looking towards these different models. But what I’m not sensing right now is China have decided upon the best way to do this because we know that they are promoting University sports. But there doesn’t seem to be a particular connection between uni sports and professional athletes-structure. We know that China is trying to get university teams to participate in regional leagues in Germany. But that backfired for a whole number of reasons. China is a huge country and a regional league would make sense in many ways. But we are not seeing that progress. Yet. There doesn’t seem to be a particular view on regional leagues. The Chinese want to replicate the British pyramid but they really need to get into grassroots development, embedding sport within a culture. Also to make pathways for those who don’t make it in professional sport. Lots of decisions and examples to draw. But China needs to be more decisive and clear about which way to go.
Is pouring in money the solution to improve team sports?
Money alone is not enough. Culture trumps everything. Just because you pay someone to do something it doesn’t mean a culture gets established. Culture comes from years of repetition. You know this from cricket in India. It’s years of repetition. People are born and brought up, conditioned to it, they play, they watch it, they engage with it in different ways, so that it becomes normal and natural and it’s not seen as exceptional. I think at the moment there is something contrived about what China is trying to do. Because for most Chinese people, I emphasise this very strongly, for most Chinese people, football is not part of their lives. Their culture of sport. Its not naturally something that they look for entertainment or physical activity or exercise. So it’ll take effort.
What does it take to make a good national team?
Patience, openness, it’s got to be something that happens over at least a decade. You got to open your heart, your mind to different ways of doing things, different ways of playing, organising, training, different influences. It’s about heroes, icons, role models, its about success and about giving people reasons to cheer a team. At the moment I don’t think the Chinese have reasons to cheer a national team which underperforms.
Is Japan then a better model for team sports?
Combination of corporations and prefectures and clubs working together collectively is what’s working for Japan. As equal, trilateral partners. For me each one shows respect for the other, so it’s collaborative. In China one of the big issues is the state is omnipresent. It’s there in the background, waiting to intervene. And we know this prescribed way of living can be incredibly constraining when it comes to successfully trying to organise, trying to train people to make their own decisions. Talking specifically about football players, making decisions on the field of play.
It’s interesting to compare Chinese society with Saudi Arabia’a top football clubs. Now what Saudi Arabia is trying to do is to privatise those clubs because the Saudi government believes by privatising them it forces them to become more business like and strategic in how they operate. They’re not constantly looking for state handouts, for state to tell them what to do. They’ve got to make revenues, make good commercial decisions. They’ve got to manage labour, their players, the passion and there are lessons there that excessive state intervention – and keep in mind I’m not arguing here for excessive free market economy for governing Chinese football. But mixed economy is the best way to put it. Mixed economy of Chinese football needs to be strengthened. So football needs to be far less a state instrument. And far more a social democratic institution.
https://indianexpress.com/article/sports/football/simon-chadwick-football-team-sports-in-china-7229102/
Nepal Super league
So a samll country as Nepal has 7 teams compared to us. Its is a big shame for us.
If it is a temporary measure, then its ok. From next season they should be playing in their regions.
They are growing organically each year and now have a 20 team league with 21 foreigners and most of their top talents like Mahrez, Bennacer and many more are playing in top 5 divisions. This league is a supply chain for top clubs
https://www.transfermarkt.us/ligue-professionnelle-1/startseite/wettbewerb/ALG1
New interim Tottenham boss Ryan Mason was fighting for his life four years ago after fracturing his skull playing for Hull against Chelsea - now he's the Premier League's youngest ever boss at just 29
He is about to become the Premier League's youngest manager, five years younger than captain Hugo Lloris — who is one of seven players in the squad who were team-mates of Mason on his last Spurs appearance five years ago.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9492841/Ryan-Mason-fighting-life-four-years-ago-hes-Premier-Leagues-youngest-boss.html
Thanks!!
https://twitter.com/Inter_en
Inter Milan win Serie A title and end Juventus' nine-year reign as Italian champions
Inter Milan clinch Serie A title with four matches to spare as Atalanta's 1-1 draw at Sassuolo on Sunday gave them unassailable 13-point cushion; Antonio Conte puts an end to club's 10-year trophy drought and Juventus' nine-year Scudetto winning cycle, which he started
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11854/12293076/inter-milan-win-serie-a-title-and-end-juventus-nine-year-reign-as-italian-champions
There will be a lot of cutting and chopping this summer I think . And Arsenal ,11th as we speak . Sad days for a gooner.